Welcome to Life After Losing Mom With Kat Bonner. In this episode, we’re joined by artist and mother, Deborah Morbeto. Deborah lost her mom suddenly and found herself filled with emotions about her mom's passing. She has found creativity to be a source of healing.
Welcome to Life After Losing Mom With Kat Bonner. In this episode, we’re joined by artist and mother, Deborah Morbeto.
What To Listen For
Deborah lost her mom suddenly when she seemed to be in good physical health. But her mom wasn’t healthy emotionally and ultimately led to her demise. Deborah uses art and creativity to process her emotions and teaches others to do the same. How you process is up to you but it’s important to try and find an outlet or activity that works for you.
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Voiceover: 00:00 In 2013 Kat Bonner lost her mom in a tragic car accident. She figured out how to manage her grief and is helping other women do the same. On this podcast, you'll hear from other women who have lost their moms and discover the exact coping strategies you need to get through the day and be in the best place you've ever been. Don't miss another episode. Subscribe today. More information can be found at KatBonner.com/podcast And if you'd like to join a group of likeminded women had to Facebook and search for the life after losing mom community. Lastly, if you're looking for help managing your grief book a complimentary connection call at KatBonner.com
Kat: so before we get started with the episode, I just want to share something with you. I'm sure you've heard multiple times that grief is an individual process. Well, the people you heard this from aren't wrong because it very much so is you're probably wondering how can someone help me when they grieve differently than I do? That's why I'm so passionate about one on one coaching that is totally customized to you and your pain points. I let you guide me to ways I can help you. I can, I'll, I take on three clients at a time. So the spots are limited. I'd love for you to tell me how I can help you in your grief journey.
Kat 01:36 I just wanted to welcome Miss Deborah to the show.
Deborah 01:40 Hey, great. Thank you for having me. Of course.
Kat 01:43 So I just like to start off every episode with each woman sharing whatever they want to about the loss of their mom.
Deborah 01:50 Okay. Um, wow. That's, that's a loaded question. Well, I lost my mom in 2017, which, you know, given that it's 2019, of course still feels like yesterday. Um, it was, uh, the 26th of November. So it was right after thanksgiving. And ironically, we did not have a formal Thanksgiving and, um, she was local. She lived, um, I live in northern Virginia with my husband and my son and she, um, had been married to my stepdad for a long time. He passed away about a decade ago and then she moved here from the Boston area to live locally and um, lived around the corner. She was single and she was 74 and really in very good health and we spent a lot of time together, you know, doing, you know, everyday kinds of stuff, sharing recipes, going shopping, having lunch, et cetera. And she had the flu and she was unhappy and uncomfortable, but you know, nothing extreme. And, uh, I just had chatted with her one evening very informally. She had been feeling better, she said, and then, um, the next day, um, and there's a story here, but the next day, you know, in any case she was, she was, she was gone.
Kat 03:15 Oh Wow. Wow. Yeah. It was real. It was intense. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, it's always interesting. I feel like, not necessarily to compare desks, but you look at like extracted versus unexpected. Yeah. It's really interesting when you look at, um, you know, the losses that like, where, you know, the person was sick, but they got sick really fast and it's like about the time you realized they were sick, they weren't gone. So you literally couldn't, that's almost, you know, unexpected, which is sad
Deborah 03:50 because it's so hard, you know, and I've been through both. Um, you know, like you said, there's no comparing death. It's so awful no matter how you slice it, but you know, there's an element to the surprise factor that's makes it difficult in an entirely different way just because you have no prior processing emotionally to, to get you prepared at all. And you know, I was not prepared at, and I, we have longevity in my family and I assumed that she would be around. Yeah. Mid to late nineties, all the women in my family.
Kat 04:23 That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, it really just goes to show, and this is gonna sound crazy, but how like precious your health is. And I mean, even something like the flu, I mean, you can't control the flu. Um, but that's like a normal, I guess a not a normal thing.
Deborah 04:42 Right? Well, I'm thinking even think you need it to, I mean, exactly. Most times when you get the flu you just like, Oh, you know, fluids and rest and you know, maybe some Tylenol and you know, you soup when you get through it. I mean, no one would think, you know, I need to do anything more formal to combat it. It was still just the flu.
Kat 05:02 Yeah. It's so, and it's weird because I think death really puts your life into perspective. It's like, okay, like I really need to focus on my health. Yeah. We still don't do it. Like everybody's guilty of it. And it's like, well, why is that? I don't know. It's,
Deborah 05:19 yeah, well not even it being a balance. We all have great ideas about how, you know, Facebook and the Internet, no, Jesus, we have to do this, that and the other. And then, you know, real life, it's real life, you know? Exactly. Or if your health is certainly a priority, but there's, you know, we're all very busy. Yeah.
Kat 05:34 Oh my God, that's so funny. So, let's see. It seems like your mom, like got pretty sick pretty fast. Did, yeah. Had she gotten the flu before? Like had she been yeah,
Deborah 05:45 and she had had like bronchial issues and she had had, um, you know, issues with getting like recurring colds and a lot of things like that. And I was, you know, mildly, she was also pushing yourself too hard. So I felt that a lot of it was because she pushed it. She was pushing yourself too hard, both sort of what I call an an a mode level, which is sort of in your regular life. I mean, she was just working too much and she was around kids, which, you know, there's a lot of germs, but she was also really doing a lot, a number on herself emotionally by just beating herself up constantly and worrying so much that, you know, there were times that I, you know, was, was on, it was, um, I'm sorry you Liz, it was clear, you know, I would say to her, mom, you know, you're worrying yourself to death. Like you're getting sick and you're worrying. It's making it worse. You know, it's one thing to be feeling bad, you know, I understand that in a physical age, like I said, a mood level, but on an emotional level, in a, what I call a B mode level, you know, you are making this intrinsically worse on yourself and you're, you know, worrying is, is, is, is a killer. It's just you're, you're, you're hurting your body.
Kat 07:01 Oh yeah. Like if people are like, you're like gonna worry yourself death. That is, that was, yeah, that's so true. Which is crazy because worrying just means you care. And it's like, okay, where is the balance? You know, something's gotta give
Deborah 07:16 a really hard time with balance and her fears about death and this is another, you know, area I can go on about or, you know, could, as the, as the interview progresses. But, you know, she spent a lot of her time worrying about her health even prior to this particular about it with flu. And it was obsessive. It was compulsive, it was unhealthy. And, um, we talked a lot, the two of us about, about that and about how, you know, she had an irrational fear of death and it led some, you know, really obsessive worrying, which ultimately, you know, in her case I felt I feel led to her death.
Kat 07:56 Yeah. That's, it's interesting that you say that and I wonder it, did she like get sick a lot each year? Like did she struggle with like maybe like autoimmune, like stuff she didn't have,
Deborah 08:08 if anything like an autoimmune, because I did at one point she and I did have her do some more formal testing and she had bronchitis at one point. She was hospitalized very briefly and they did it, you know, the battery of tests. And so yes, she'd got sick a lot. I yes. Been guest to that and but anything more underlying? No. [inaudible] she was healthy, you know, no cancers. No. You know, she exercise, she was active. Um, she didn't have autoimmune. She didn't, you know, she was, she was aging really well.
Kat 08:46 I mean, it was just the flu and like things just kind of went south. I'm curious, how was like her health growing up or lifestyle? Like did she, you know, I guess try to take care of herself later, like kind of too late in life I guess? Yeah.
Deborah 09:03 Yeah, that's, you nailed it. Um, and I do think in her case and in a lot of cases, um, it was not just not take care of herself physically because she was actually pretty good at that. She always went to the doctor and, um, even though she had a lot of anxiety about it, um, as she aged, but she, you know, always took care of herself physically, but she just could not take care of herself emotionally ever. And I didn't understand that as much. Of course when I was little because I was too little. But as I got older and we became, the dynamics of our relationship changed, I really came to understand from looking back at how, um, she really had no idea how to take care of herself emotionally at all. And that really led to person across the board attitude of hers. Like she was really at everyone else's mercy, including I guess, you know, um, times when she was sick. I mean, she was not, she was unempowered at all in any situation.
Kat 10:09 Okay.
Kat 10:11 It's interesting that you bring up her like, I guess like mentally healthy because, yeah. So, so, so important to elderly, like cannot stress that enough because so many things in life are about mindset and like your mentality just around everything that happens. So do you think that like maybe her like decisions in the past regarding, I wouldn't say self care, but regarding like lifestyle and health, like maybe contributed to her sicknesses like in the future?
Deborah 10:52 I think so in the sense that they were emotionally, um, bad for her. Like I said, growing up now that I reflect, she never, you know, she always went to the doctor and she ate well and took, you know, medicine she needed to, you know, exercise and all of this. But you know, she had a series of really unhealthy relationships with her parents. Um, her two spouses, um, friendships, other people along the way. And she really set herself up to be the doormat in so many situations. And it again ties back into her sense of just needing to be a doormat. People please, you know, she just emotionally put herself second, third, fourth, fifth in so many circumstances with jobs, like I said with our two spouses. So she sort of set herself up in a way to um, set herself up literally. Cause like I said, her health was, was pretty good, but I see that a lifetime of putting yourself second or, or less to abduct everyone else's needs and wants and wishes, you know, is debilitating and it kind of sets you up in as you age. Um, I don't know. I, I think that's a hard for me to put into words, um, because I do really see a lot of her demise as emotional. That led to her being physically just too debilitated to be able to care for herself the way she needed to.
Kat 12:30 Oh my God, you literally are just like, answer my question. I was going to ask like I was like, do you think that you know her mental wellbeing led to her demise? Oh, absolutely. It people don't think about that and it's like you, your brain literally gets to the point where it's like I cannot physically take care of myself anymore because I'm so burned out. Yup.
Deborah 12:54 Yeah. Like I think that that's key in, in her situation and probably like you said with others too, I really don't feel her death was because of a solely physical thing. I think her death was, had more to do with her mental health than her physical health. Like she had just worked herself into such a frenzy about her fears and her doubts and her insecurities and her worries.
Speaker 5: 13:19 That
Deborah 13:21 one moment when she wasn't feeling 100% and she had the flu and it was, you know, some time past midnight, she just reached a critical mass, her body shut down. It didn't need to though because it was physically she didn't need to. It was emotionally and mentally. She just, she did herself in. Okay.
Kat 13:42 I mean, yeah, you hear about, you know, people with like dementia and Alzheimer's and things like that and they're physically like in great health. Exactly what the Thurlow yeah, rain is like, but like everything whole works together. So like, exactly. It doesn't really matter if you're physically healthy. It doesn't matter if you're physically unwell and you're mentally healthy. Like it just all, it's all compilation. Exactly. The things, I'm curious, how did it make you, or how does it, you know, continue to make you feel knowing that like your mom put everyone else first so much that she didn't think about herself? Like was it more of a positive or a negative if you think for you?
Deborah 14:24 Um, well I think, I think, I know from my own process of, you know, recovery and, and being, you know, in therapy in my adult life that I was actually one of the people she didn't put first in her life. Um, you know, she always took good care of me in the physical sense. I had, you know, food, clothing, shelter, et Cetera, et cetera. But she was really distant emotionally. And when it came to circumstances, um, I definitely did not come first. Uh, and so, you know, I look, I don't know. Remind me, go back. I'm going on a tangent. Remind me re rephrase the question just one more time.
Kat 15:09 Yeah. So I was just asking like is it, was it like how did it make you feel knowing that your mom put everyone else's like wellbeing before her own? Like were you like go mom, like you're so kind to everybody else? Like does that make sense?
Deborah 15:26 Yes, it totally makes sense. And I sort of, like I said, I had gone gotten a tangent, but it's okay. I mean I spend a lot of my early adult life being really, really angry with her and needing to work through in a therapeutic environment. The a anger and I still have a lot of anger towards her because not so much that you didn't take care of me because I've come to terms with it to a degree, but anger that she didn't take care of herself for the sheer sake of taking care of herself. I mean she would be here today if she could have taken care of herself. And I learned partially from her. And I think just, I think it's a nature versus nurture thing. Partially just by nature I'm more aggressive and assertive. So for me, taking care of myself as a no brainer, I mean that's something I need to do.
Deborah 16:20 And the anger that I had and still have for her, you know, has to do with frustration. Just watching her cow town to everyone else's needs and desires and putting herself second. It May, it pisses me off and like I said, she's still be here if she didn't do that. And you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm not cut from that cloth. So some of it's nature, but some of it's nurture to, you know, I guess you kind of taught me to behave like that and I think I rebelled against it, you know, because I do take care of myself.
Kat 16:59 Yeah. I love that you like meant and the whole like nature for Shizz nurture thing. And I feel like to a lot of people, especially when it comes to grief, it's like, okay, like with anything in life, there's a balance. It's okay if you want to help other people, but you come first. And if there's one thing that I've learned in my grief or just anything in life, it's like you cannot help other people until you help yourself. And there's nothing wrong with it.
Deborah 17:23 You know, you're in the airplane metaphor in the, you know, the, you know, the breathing, whatever. If you're,
Kat 17:29 and it's literally just [inaudible]
Deborah 17:30 the oxygen mask falls down. You're like, everyone knows, you know, you put it on yourself before you assist someone else because you're useless. You can't, you can't help anyone if you're, if you're not taking care of yourself first, you can't be president. You can't do anything like that.
Kat 17:46 People Probably Think, oh, I'm going to put my oxygen mask on my kid before I helped me. But I'm like, whatever. I mean to each their own. But it's like how, I mean, and it's just society just basically telling, getting in our heads and making us think that we're selfish. But you are taking care of yourself is not selfish. And that is literally my biggest pet peeve. I'm like, no, I put myself first and I'm fricking proud of it. Don't be a little dickhead. Like,
Deborah 18:13 yeah, I mean it's interesting because I think as women, especially in this culture, you know, there's a lot of mixed messages. So there's like lip service to, you know, being empowered and like I grew up in the 70s and it was women can do whatever they want and we can have it all and have jobs and Dah, Dah, Dah, this, that and the other, you know. But on the other hand, there's still a lot of pressure to um, be the second, um, not the second, but you know, be the caregivers and be the caretakers and my default. That leaves you oftentimes in a position where you're not taking care of yourself. So I think it's, there's a mixed message and I think it's confusing for women. And I think there's a lot of pressure and I think it's, you know, they quote unquote so you can have it all that, I don't know that that's really true unless you're being really mindful and taking care of yourself and balancing things because you know, um, uh, like I said, I lip service.
Kat 19:16 Yeah. That's powerful. I don't think it's possible to do everything
Deborah 19:20 right.
Kat 19:21 It's so funny that you use like third generation in there or not generation. Um, the whole like women being a caretaker because that was exactly what was coming to my mind. I'm like literally, once again, society has this idea that women should take care of everyone else.
Speaker 6: 19:36 And I'm like, no, why? Who the hell gave you that idea? So, um, well when they do that, it's an assault.
Deborah 19:45 Cool thing too. I mean, women have been the caregivers for, you know, centuries. So it's a natural progression. You know, we are going to be the caregiver. So that's been our role. So it gets, I think, tricky, confusing and complex when it's an a modern time. Like we're in now and we're still considered, you know, the caregivers and we're expected to have this role. And on the other hand, you know, we're more liberated and you know, there are more choices for us. You know, it's made it more complex really in a lot of ways and not as empowering or as easy as someone is. Others might think, I think it's very confusing.
Kat 20:19 Oh yeah, it absolutely is. So I am curious, how long would you say after your mom's passing did it take you to realize that like her kind of pass was a part of her device?
Deborah 20:35 Well, I didn't see her death coming, but, uh, I knew it the moment. I mean I knew it from the time she died. I mean, you know, I've talked extensively with, um, family, especially her, one of her sisters who I'm very close with and a cousin of mine who was very close with her as well. And, you know, we can't reiterate enough and we all agree that, you know, she, you know, really did this to herself. And, um, um, I know, do me a favor and say that again cause I definitely,
Kat 21:14 yeah, no, I would just not like how, like how long did it take you to realize that like, you know, your mom's past like led to her demise, but you said it was pretty like instantaneously. Yeah. So That's interesting. Yeah.
Deborah 21:29 But like, I mean, there was no question from the moment she died, like this could've been prevented. She didn't allow it to happen and she couldn't have because she didn't have the wherewithal to take good enough care of herself to say I need help. And it was clear when I was, you know, immediately thereafter and I'm with my family and we all saw it. Like, you know, it was an infant. In retrospect, it makes almost, it sadly makes sense. I mean it's almost not surprising now that she passed because she didn't have the tools to take care of herself. She wasn't.
Kat 22:05 Yeah. It's, how did that, like, I mean, I know you said it made you angry with her, but do you think that it was like a catalyst for you to make, you know, lifestyle changes, even if you're already taking care of yourself? Like how did it affect you?
Deborah 22:24 Um, I'm still, as you know, you're not surprised given your blood work you're in. I'm still like in shock and I'm still processing it and it hasn't, I don't have enough distance from it yet to say like it's influenced me to change in x, Y and z kinds of ways because, um, it still feels too close to me and I'm still kind of in shock and an already sort of been on a path that was very different than hers anyway. And that's part of some of the discussion I've had with Liz, my close family is, you know, we're all, you know, imperfect and we're all human and you know, we're women and we have a balance in our lives. And you know, even as hard as things are, and you know, there's, we have a, we, we see the cup is half full, the glass is half full and we, you know, are able to find the joy in between the, you know, hard times or the moments of sorrow and see and have, you know, we're optimistic and enjoy things and be present in the moment. And we talk a lot about my, how my mom never could do that. I mean, she was not able to be present, not able to stop and experience the joys and she was so focused on the negative all the time and that's just really unhealthy and there's a degree to which we all talk about it and really just can't understand where she was coming from because
Speaker 4: 24:03 hmm.
Deborah 24:04 We all are able to enjoy each other and enjoy our families and enjoy our lives. And I think we have a really hard time wrapping our mind around the fact that my mom couldn't see beyond the negative at all.
Kat 24:21 Yeah. That's so interesting that you say that. It makes me wonder, you know, you live before your mom passed like a healthy lifestyle, but do you ever think about, I guess how like your lifestyle would will be different in the future? Are you like, oh I'm actually gonna put, make sure I put myself first so this doesn't happen to me type of thing? Or is it just not in the back of their mind? Is it not in your mind at all?
Deborah 24:52 Something that's in my mind, but it was something that has been in my mind prior to her passing. I jokingly say one of, I have, you know like quote unquote advice for women. You know, one is, and this is huge and it comes directly from her circumstances, own property. You know, as a woman I think it's really important to own property. And I'm in a situation where I've been married for a pretty long period of time and you know, I've planned with long with my husband for your, what will happen if he passes away before I do. And you know, there's a secure plan in place, a formal plan financially, and there's property involved. And one of the massive things in my moms, um, that was not in her corner was she and her, my stepdad prior to his death didn't plan for her retirement. So she had no money, no property when she basically had nothing.
Speaker 4: 25:52 Okay.
Deborah 25:52 And, you know, this was a huge source of worry for her, a huge source of stress, you know, money, we all know, doesn't make us happy, but not having it sure doesn't, you know, sure. Makes you unhappy. So I knew a lung, um, as I was approaching, you know, my middle age that I had, uh, a vision for what my retirement and my own, you know, later life would look like. And it's gonna involve me owning property so that I have access to the funds. I B I need to, you know, feed myself the way I need to and go to the doctor without worrying about how much it's gonna cost and all of these things that, you know, seem little but, but aren't as as you age.
Kat 26:40 Oh, I love that like aspect. I'm like, yes. So important because that's just a part of taking care of yourself, making sure that you set yourself up for success or for survival. Hell, I mean, yeah cause that's a little bit more important.
Deborah 26:54 It's heartbreaking to me. Like, and I had said to her prior to my, even my stepdad passing away like, mom, you know, please urge him like buy a Condo, you know, stop renting please. They had sold a home they owned and she said, well, you know, he doesn't want to do it. And you know, I said, well why don't you push him? And she's, well I've tried but you know, I don't want to upset him. And you know, this is a prime example of her sort of cow telling and taking second fiddle. And, you know, at one point I had urged her, I said, what, just leave him like, don't leave him permanently, but maybe just send them a message, like pack your bags. I'll come down and stay with me for a month. Show him that you mean business because you know, I don't want you to end up without property in some kind of way to retire and live a healthy lifestyle.
Deborah 27:41 And she just didn't have the, um, self esteem to be able to do that. And then, you know, uh, low and behold, he passed away my Stepdad and she had, you know, a very small amount of social security to live on. And this is part of what was happening for her when she had moved down here after he died was she was overworked at her job because solely because she needed the money. So I think I witnessed her health deteriorate to a point because she had no choice at age 74. Um, but to be working and the actual work was starting to become debilitating to her physically. And if she had planned and had been able to set her needs. And you know, be demanding about what she needed for her retirement and for her aging process, she might not have had to work and this scenario could have been entirely different.
Kat 28:42 Bless her heart. Yeah. It's so many that you mentioned that I'm like, I don't know. I work a 74 help people. Don't think about that. And I mean even if you know your mom has someone like you to tell her that they have to tell themselves that like it doesn't, it could read it with the get home
Deborah 28:59 and she wouldn't listen. And guess what happened? She had no money. She worked herself to a frenzy and she worked herself to her friends and she and she died and that had,
Kat 29:08 that becomes a domino effect. Exactly. Literally the little things in life add up.
Deborah 29:13 I didn't quite see it coming per se. Like I didn't know she would die. But I mean I saw prior to terrain and moving for here to where I live from the Boston area where I grew up, you know, do this, this and this or what's your going to be in trouble and a decade lady. And she was, you know,
Kat 29:31 the second time, I don't even notice your Boston accent. Just a little side note. Thank you. Yay. Um, well, so I'm curious, how does it, like how have you coped with like knowing your mom's decisions ultimately led to this situation that you're in, in your life?
Deborah 29:53 Um, I think, I don't know, well, coping is probably not the right word because I'm sort of set up in a situation in my current life or a lot of the pieces are really solidly in place and other than, you know, just plunging in to the grief and dealing with the sadness and the tragedy of it all and the anger, I feel, um, you know, and that's sort of just a daily roller coaster. Um, you know, I haven't needed to do anything sort of large on my part to come to terms with her passing. You know, there was certainly like dealing with her state, which is, you know, a word I use. Oh my God. Yeah. She had no money, so she had no estate, but we had bought her a condo and you know, she had a lot of, another issue she had was she looked to, um, she looked to, uh, material possessions as a way of making herself feel full and whole, which of course never worked.
Deborah 30:57 And we had hours upon hours of dialogue about her, you know, addiction to buying things. And it was such a, like a double edge sword in a sense that she spending money, she didn't have to begin with. She's not really getting what she needs, which is, you know, she needs emotional. So she needed something emotional. Obviously she didn't need it, you know, another set of, you know, new dishes. But I, I got on that road because, you know, after she, prior to her death, we had, you know, this condominium to clean out my husband and I, that was, I mean, she had more stuff in that condominium, which was 800 square feet than I have in my entire, you know, 3000 foot square house. I mean, it was so dealing with that was hard, you know, because it was not easy to basically like throw your mother away. I mean I had to fish, throw all this stuff away that she had bought to make her happy and did and it was really hard emotionally. But other than sort of, you know, in dealing with citing, you know, we were going to have her cremated and what to do with the ashes and you know, sort of, you know, I haven't had much to sort of cope with other than just this incredible loneliness and sadness that I feel, you know, like have a really solid
Speaker 7: 32:20 yes.
Deborah 32:22 Um, present day life. So I think that's made it a lot easier.
Kat 32:26 Yeah. It's interesting that, sorry, I literally use over an interests and like 20 times, um, that you mentioned how you were saying like it was hard for you because you felt like you're throwing your mom away. It really, my heart thinking that she thought that these material things would make her happy because so many people think that way and you're like, oh my gosh. So what? I guess emotions really came from, you know, this realization of like these actions ultimately, you know, led to this. Was it more anger or like just depression? Loneliness.
Deborah 33:07 Oh, you mean like on, on her part that drove her?
Kat 33:10 No, like how did you feel, I guess about this situation? Like, you know, like your mom's decisions leading to the situation that you're in? I mean, obviously you're all gonna, you know, feel different ways at different times. But I guess like ultimately like when you are going through her things and that's the thing, like, tell me more about that. Like what, what's going through your mind?
Deborah 33:31 Well, um, first of all, my husband does a lot of it and I sat out a lot of it. I mean, he's, um, I'm lucky. He's amazing because there were days when he would go over there and just throw away. Like you can literally just cart things from her condo to the dumpster and I would just stay home. I just couldn't handle it emotionally. But you know, when I did participate in, I do think about just conceptually like I'm throwing my mother away and what that was about with all of this stuff that she didn't need. It's, I feel right now, I feel more than anything, I feel sad. It's, it's a tragedy. I mean, this woman was very isolated and lonely her whole life. She tried to fill herself with things and it didn't work and no one was really, really able to break through, not even me, her brick wall and get through to that person underneath who was really dd and really hurting and really wanted to connect to the point where she would just kept buying things and buying things and buying things. And you know, I just, it's really sad and this is something I talk about with my extended family too. I mean, the big conclusion, the big pieces, this is a tragedy. This is a really sad, this is a woman who was Billy basically isolated in an extremely lonely her whole life and sad. And you know, the kind of sad you feel about it, a tragic event is probably the most pervasive emotion. It's, it's heart wrenching. It's in what a waste of a life.
Kat 35:15 Yeah. But I mean, she had you, so I've, it's like you probably think that, but I hope that she didn't.
Deborah 35:21 She did. And everybody says that because I'm, I mean, I'm an only, and that is another dynamic as part of this scenario. I mean, when you're an only child and you lose a mom who's been, um, a single parent for your entire life, there's a certain sense of loneliness and isolation that I feel that no one could touch because we had a world that we lived in together for the, you know, my whole life, that was just the two of us and her not being alive and part of that world anymore and being gone in that world doesn't exist, is super lonely. Um, I don't have a sibling that I can turn to and say, gosh, remember when mom blah, or, Gosh, you know, I feel so strained and sad without bomb here to see blah. Um, you know, and certainly I have a loving husband and a loving family, but there's a degree to which I feel very alone as an only lost her mom.
Kat 36:24 Yeah. I can see that. It's not like, yeah. You know, it's like when you grew up, it was like literally, like I say, it was me and my mom, but no, like it was literally you and your mom
Deborah 36:34 literally. I mean they parents divorced when I was 18 months old, so it was, yeah, we had a whole family life, just the two of us. And without her, I feel lost. So all out at the time. I mean, I've said, you know, to lots of people that, you know, losing her as like losing a limb. And I think probably a lot of women feel that way when they lose their moms. Oh yeah. You know, and um, you know, the fact that I don't have this world, I mean, this one, you know, like I don't, yeah, I just don't have anyone who really was in the, in the trenches with me in that relationship, in that world. So in a way it's, you know, like I said, it's lonely, you know, I miss her, I miss our way of life. It's, you know, like for the past 50 years I've lived, you know, with her as a mom and just the two of us. Yeah.
Kat 37:30 I'm curious, I love that you were like losing him. I was like losing a limb Africa, but I've never said it. So what limb would you compare it to? I would say
Deborah 37:39 compare it to an arm because you use your arms to reach and thing for things and holding them, you know, and I think you use your legs to walk and to hold you up. And I never really used my legs too. I never really used my relationship with my mom to walk or hold me up cause I've done that on my own. I've been very independent and strong willed and determined. But I think about your arms and how we as humans use them. Like I said, to reach out and hold things and contain things and shelter things and touch and make a connection. And I feel that a lot more strongly with regard to my mom.
Speaker 8: 38:26 Okay.
Deborah 38:28 And so in that sense, not having her feels like I'm missing one of these implements that I use to, to make a connection, to hold a hand, to put your arm around someone to contain, to, you know, all those things you associate with, with, you know, your arm as opposed to your leg or your eye or your ear or your toes or your fingers or arms or just comforting. Right? Yeah. They hug you, you know, they hold they the, you know, yeah. And that's how I do I feel. Yeah. Like I'm really missing an arm.
Kat 39:01 Oh my God, I love this analogy.
Deborah 39:03 Totally did not think of this until you asked me this question just now. Like I had not put it into words, but it's like really, it's really powerful.
Kat 39:12 Good. I'm glad. Well, people love it. Like people don't think about it. And then you have somebody who asks you a question or like you start talking and you're like, oh my God, what? Like what is coming out of my mouth right now? Like what is going through my brain? Yeah.
Deborah 39:26 This is really, it's a light bulb for me and I'm probably going to write, either write more about it or do a piece of art around it because it's really powerful. I mean, yeah, it's an arm and it's what arms do and I miss her in that sense in you know, a very real way.
Kat 39:42 And you almost use your arms for art, which is another interesting aspect. As a side note, I love that you like do the art stuff though because we're you like into that before your mom passed.
Deborah 39:54 Oh yeah. And you know this is great because it comes full circle and this is a, you know, a positive, like she is the one, you know, when I was a young girl or about 10 or 11, she was the one who signed me up for extracurricular art classes outside of, you know, whatever you receive in public school. And, you know, I went to the star class and I started to learn how to paint. And you know, the person who was the teacher at the time, this is, you know, back when I was little said, you know, your daughter has as talent and you should, you know, continue to pursue outside our classes, you know, for her. And so, you know, I kind of joke when we look back and think, well, did this guy really just want my mom's money saying, you know, he was really talented, but you know, I have to, you know, think he really saw something in me. And so to my mom's credit, she was the one who started my formal art career. And so what started as art lessons when I was 10 or 11 turned into, um, uh, focused in high school and then a portfolio and going to art school, which led to, um, working as, um, an independent artist and leading workshops, teaching art, um, being a working artist, having open studio, um, selling our, I mean, it's my career. So really my mom was just to thank for the, she's the one who, who laid the groundwork for that.
Kat 41:28 That is so cool. It's interesting that I think emotions are a lot about creativity. Creativity is a really good healer. I think. And especially I was talking to somebody else on another episode, um, earlier and I was like, you know, everybody has this idea in life that like the only way to express your emotions or to like write about them and talk about them. And when you look at like your catalyst for healing, like you could literally use your art as a healing tool and sometimes not even know it.
Deborah 41:59 Oh, absolutely. I think I've been doing art therapy in my studio for the past 30 years. I've got no doubt. So cool. Yeah, I mean, I knew that, but you know, I, I'm an abstract artist on the whole, so I have to say, you know, I jokingly have always say, oh, well I like to scribble. So I think I've been scribbling through my emotions for the past 30 years.
Kat 42:17 Well, it works because grief is a very abstract thing.
Deborah 42:21 Yep. And that's, you know, it's so palatable. I mean, I go into the studio and I can feel the emotions, you know, and I'm scribbling and I'm, you know, it's all full of energy and I'm, you know, um, yeah, it's colorful and it's intense and it's powerful and it's a lot of kinetic energy and it's, um, you know, it's all about the healing. Yeah,
Kat 42:44 absolutely. So there was a woman who I lost her mom and she came to you and she was like, Hey, I struggle with like, you know, my mom's past leading up to her demise. What like would you say to her?
Deborah 42:58 Um, oh, what do I say? I get it. Like what advice would you have for, I guess, well, I mean, I wouldn't have any specific advice for that person versus another person who came to me who was grappling with some kind of loss or grief or issue because I'm always, I always, my knee jerk response is always, you know, use our reviews. Creativity as a, as a tool for healing. Cause it's just worked for me, for, for my whole adult life.
Kat 43:26 But I really like that. It would work for a lot of people, even though like not just art, but just the creativeness behind it. Like, which is, that's interesting. I mean, but you, it's important to be competent in knowing like what works for you because you never know when it's going to work for somebody else. Right. Think that's the important part.
Deborah 43:49 Well, and that's in that, in the sense that, you know, a lot of people will say, well, I can't do art. And you have formal trainings so you can do, you know, and then whenever I do teach or lead workshops or do anything, you know, I try to remind people that, you know, everyone's creative and creativity doesn't mean that you can paint something that looks perfect or you know, this isn't about perfection. This isn't about art critic. This is about the practice of making art and in the moment so they can be creative and some kind of contextualize your emotions. It's not about a finished product,
Kat 44:25 not at all. And it's so funny, like, Oh, you can't do, are like, yes you can. It doesn't like you're doing it right now.
Deborah 44:31 If I had a dime for every, I mean ha ha, you know, for every time they were like, you draw a straight line with a ruler. I'm like, well neither can I. That does nothing for you to think this is what art is. So you know, my default, you know. But I also, you know, gardening, um, I think, uh, you know, cooking, you know, there's a lot of ways to be creative and express yourself. Not just, you know, fine arts per se, but they're all creative. I mean, it's just about being creative. I think
Kat 44:57 that's one, you just have to talk to somebody and get it for different ideas and you're like, wow, there's so many things I can try. Oh my God, I didn't know this. And then when you find the one that works for you, that's when you told the people and that's when you just keep huge kind of like keep the ball rolling. So,
Deborah 45:12 yeah, I mean that's what I've done, you know, painting and art, you know, if I got that from cooking, you know, I'd just be cooking new rate of crazy meals all the time. You know, whatever works, you know.
Kat 45:26 Well, is there a place that the listeners can find your art? Um, do you like advertise it anywhere?
Deborah 45:32 Well, I have a website, um, which is a cute name. It's um, www.TheDebWeb.com. Cute. Yeah. So that's a place where I have uh, you know, posted. There are a lot, there's a lot of people and then I have my, my Facebook page, I think you'll have a link to, and you know, that's where I'm sort of active president and the president where I tell folks about workshops or I, you know, post art work or you know, I post pictures of my kids, you know, whatever.
Kat 46:00 Gotcha. Is it only like, it's like your personal profile, right?
Deborah 46:03 Yeah, it's a page and it usually to be a formal art page, but I sort of, you know, started posting and loved all the fun stuff.
Kat 46:11 It's important for people to get to know you in that regard anyway.
Deborah 46:15 It's one thing to show your art and have it be sort of, kind of stiff and formal, but when people get to know, like what's behind it, like, you know, when my mom died and my kid did this or you know, this have, you know, it makes you, yeah. So, yeah, I mean like, yeah, absolutely. I'm fine. Double in that sense and certainly open to always open to talking to anybody who would ever want to, you know, who feels the same or has gone through anything. Like I've gone through, you know, just lot, lots of uh, you know, uh, warm vibes and hugs and love and you know, this is, this is hard.
Kat 46:50 It makes the world go round for sure. Yup. Well, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your story. I really appreciate you being here.
Deborah 46:57 It was my pleasure. Thank and thank you because I think that um, it's really good for people, especially women to hear other women's stories about the grief and the loss, especially with, with a mom. It's really intimate, intense, difficult to navigate, um, relationships. So thank you so much for giving me the opportunity.
Kat 47:17 Hey friend, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Before you go, I have four favors to ask you. First, I wanted to let you know that I host a group for women where we share our day to day stories, challenges, and victories. If you want to come along for the ride, head to Facebook and search for the life after losing mom community. Second, if you don't mind leaving me a review and telling me how I've helped you in your grief journey, I would greatly appreciate it. Third, head to KatBonner.com/podcast to access previous episodes and subscribe for episodes in the future. Finally head to KatBonner.com to schedule a complimentary connection call with me. I'd love to know more about your grief journey. Always remember that despite losing our mothers, we have a flourishing futures
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